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wongkey · #41 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndecena

Very well said. I try to think of analogies that make sense, like supercharging a car. If you supercharge a mini cooper, it only has so many horse power to start with. If you add to the horse power, say a Ferrari, and supercharge it, well you have more power to start with. So, the end result is better results from the one with more capacity for more power. There are many aspects to jumping, and plyos are just a part of it.

Doesn't going down past 90degree's on your squat cause injury and pain to your knee's thought??

johndecena · #42 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wongkey

Doesn't going down past 90degree's on your squat cause injury and pain to your knee's thought??

Only if you're squatting incorrectly. Your toes and knee's should be pointed slightly outward. Your back should be mostly upright, you should be looking mostly upward to keep your head up. On the way down, you should actually be sitting slightly BACK. Greybluehound, do you have some input?

bluegreyhound · #43 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndecena

Only if you're squatting incorrectly. Your toes and knee's should be pointed slightly outward. Your back should be mostly upright, you should be looking mostly upward to keep your head up. On the way down, you should actually be sitting slightly BACK. Greybluehound, do you have some input?

Torque at the knee is apparently maximised when the angle at the knee joint is 90 degrees. Put differently, for a given weight on the bar, your knees are stressed the most when your squat stops at the "parallel" point. Therefore, to minimise stress levels at the knee joint you could stop at slightly above parallel or at some point below parallel. I have small bones and measure about 14 inches around my knee: I have no problem squatting heavier weights and keeping my knees healthy. You are more at risk in my opinion when doing plyos incorrectly.

BTW if you adopt a wide foot stance you definitely should think about sitting back when descending and not down. However, if you use a narrow foot stance you can't really sit back in the same way due to the need to keep your centre of mass over your feet. That said, most people put their feet slighter wider than should width. If you box squat, you'll tend to use a wider stance too.

johndecena · #44 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegreyhound

Torque at the knee is apparently maximised when the angle at the knee joint is 90 degrees. Put differently, for a given weight on the bar, your knees are stressed the most when your squat stops at the "parallel" point. Therefore, to minimise stress levels at the knee joint you could stop at slightly above parallel or at some point below parallel. I have small bones and measure about 14 inches around my knee: I have no problem squatting heavier weights and keeping my knees healthy. You are more at risk in my opinion when doing plyos incorrectly.

BTW if you adopt a wide foot stance you definitely should think about sitting back when descending and not down. However, if you use a narrow foot stance you can't really sit back in the same way due to the need to keep your centre of mass over your feet. That said, most people put their feet slighter wider than should width. If you box squat, you'll tend to use a wider stance too.

I agree about the plyos. I do both standard squats, and wide squats. For wide squats I place my feet about as wide as my elbows.

wongkey · #45 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndecena

I agree about the plyos. I do both standard squats, and wide squats. For wide squats I place my feet about as wide as my elbows.

Johndecena and Bluegreyhound, what kind of plyometric exercises do you two do? All I do is 3x10 squat hops, single legged ankle hops and a couple of sprints. I do not have any jump sole shoes, nor do I have platforms that I can jump onto. Do you two have any suggestions for plyometric exercises that does not need any equipment?

wongkey · #46 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 02:09 PM

What do you guys think of sumo deadlifting? Is it as good as conventional deadlifting? I don't deadlift because I have shorter arms and I have terrible technique. I know I should just get a trainer but it's too expensive for me. Will sumo deadlifting help me in my quest to jump higher? Also what other hamstring exercises do you guys have in mind to increase hamstring strength?

bluegreyhound · #47 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wongkey

Johndecena and Bluegreyhound, what kind of plyometric exercises do you two do? All I do is 3x10 squat hops, single legged ankle hops and a couple of sprints. I do not have any jump sole shoes, nor do I have platforms that I can jump onto. Do you two have any suggestions for plyometric exercises that does not need any equipment?

I don't have a great deal of experience compared to some, but I will share what I do/have done. Depth jumps are probably the best plyometric exercise that you can perform and you can pretty much do them anywhere and with no real equipment. The key is quality of execution. Land softly, absorb the force quickly and rebound quickly. Minimal ground contact time is your goal (not ncessarily dropping down from a higher platform that is beyond your capabilities). As for sprints, they are great for developing sprinting speed (not necessarily better for improving your vert) and feet and calves of steel (important for improving your vert); short dashes improve leg power. The only other plyometric exercises that I do are sub-maximal jumps (rhythmic & exphasis on relaxation on the descent), standard approach jumps, ankle hops and lunge jumps. I also mix in tuck jumps and jumps onto ledges etc.. Admittedly, not a huge array of exercises, but I like to keep things simple and stupid so that I can measure progress. BTW it has been many many years since I'e done a dedicated plyo phase so you may wish to ask johndecena for something more current.

wongkey · #48 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegreyhound

I don't have a great deal of experience compared to some, but I will share what I do/have done. Depth jumps are probably the best plyometric exercise that you can perform and you can pretty much do them anywhere and with no real equipment. The key is quality of execution. Land softly, absorb the force quickly and rebound quickly. Minimal ground contact time is your goal (not ncessarily dropping down from a higher platform that is beyond your capabilities). As for sprints, they are great for developing sprinting speed (not necessarily better for improving your vert) and feet and calves of steel (important for improving your vert); short dashes improve leg power. The only other plyometric exercises that I do are sub-maximal jumps (rhythmic & exphasis on relaxation on the descent), standard approach jumps, ankle hops and lunge jumps. I also mix in tuck jumps and jumps onto ledges etc.. Admittedly, not a huge array of exercises, but I like to keep things simple and stupid so that I can measure progress. BTW it has been many many years since I'e done a dedicated plyo phase so you may wish to ask johndecena for something more current.

I always thought that sprinting speed directly effected the height at which you were able to jump. Faster sprinter = more ability to increase speed, which is needed for your vert, right?? Doesn't sprinting recruit more of your fast twitch fibers which is needed to jump higher? So if you sprint more you'll have more fast twitch fibers; is this correct, or am I just waay off.

johndecena · #49 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wongkey

I always thought that sprinting speed directly effected the height at which you were able to jump. Faster sprinter = more ability to increase speed, which is needed for your vert, right?? Doesn't sprinting recruit more of your fast twitch fibers which is needed to jump higher? So if you sprint more you'll have more fast twitch fibers; is this correct, or am I just waay off.

Actually, I believe it is the other way around. I don't have necessary data to back it up, but from what I HAVE read, good jumpers are good sprinters. But like I said, I don't really have the research.

bluegreyhound · #50 (**permalink**) 03-10-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wongkey

I always thought that sprinting speed directly effected the height at which you were able to jump. Faster sprinter = more ability to increase speed, which is needed for your vert, right??

I think it is an oversimplification. Skill/technique for sprinting and your vertical jump differs. The bilateral jump is particularly quad dominant whereas sprinting is very much hamstring/glute dominant. I do think that in relatively untrained individuals there may seem to be some correlation between improvements in dash/sprint times and vertical jump height. That may just be the result of improved RFD and eccentric strength. As you get more advanced however, you ought to concentrate more on jumping to improve your vertical and sprinting for track times. Just my two cents (bearing in mind that I am no track coach).